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Default Freedom of Speech vs Freedom of Expression - 07-04-2013, 08:27 AM

Is there a difference?

I just went through the "Free" comments and couldn't help but feel it was a bit much.
I'm just not sure which part was "a bit much". To be honest probably both lines of thought. Though I do believe even in the context of an anime site such dialog can be healthy and important in understanding one another.

Yes it's wrong to pre-judge anything. It's also unpleasant to place a label on anything that might provoke a negative connotation like "gay".

However by criticizing those that do,it makes us the same. I may call a show retarded. That does not mean I think the characters are portraying characters with special needs. I may comment that a football player smacking a team mate in the ass is gay. That does not mean I think they are lovers.

I think it's important to remember that to many "gay" may or may not mean homosexual content. And that freedom of speech is also in part freedom of expression.

It's equally important to remember that there are those that rightfully can become offended by such simple words. Therefore it's best to find another way to express your opinion.

As for the comments,
Personally I feel if your not going to at least watch one episode why comment. Clearly you are attempting to elicit a response. If it had merit I could understand but most of those comments didn't.

Dao,
Though I agree with you in theory, in practice there are those here who don't see the term "gay" as hateful and it's doubtful they mean it in a negative way. Also many have no real world experience aside from school and social networking. In such cases a simple explanation is best. Rather then continuing a pointless debate. Until they gain that real world view most arguments will fall on deaf ears.


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Default 07-04-2013, 09:00 AM

Totally saw what this was about when I read the topic. And dont worry people I wont join in on this dorama. I'll just enjoy it from the front row.
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Also best show evar


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Default 07-04-2013, 10:45 AM

I guess it depends on the perspective? I mean freedom of expression isnt really meant to include homosexuals...still though i get what you are saying.
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Default 07-04-2013, 11:07 AM

First, to answer the question in your subject heading, one is a right guaranteed by (an ammendment to) the US constitution, and the other one (whatever you are defining it as) is not.

As far as the rest of what you said, it all depends on how much you are willing to risk offending someone. Your intentions aren't really an issue.


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Default 07-04-2013, 11:49 AM

I think freedom is too loose a term. Like, it's probably the biggest misnomer in history. Because as far as there are laws, and distinctions between right and wrong, freedom cannot be absolute. Freedom of speech and expression to me are interchangeable, in practice it's just the method of delivery that offers any distinction.
There are some things that you cannot talk about, even in passing or theoretical discussion. The fact that your thoughts and interactions cannot be "freely" expressed and analysed with another person negates the connotation of the word free.

But in the popular political context, alcaray talks about the US constitution, but then there are some things that when said, or published will amount to crimes which lead to deprivation of other rights.

The word "gay" has evolved just like most other terms. Your analogues are perfect. Given today's usage, the word is only offensive in certain contexts just like all offensive words. Like, words you can't use around your boss, for example. So it depends on who's using the word and to whom and about what. Every offensive word has contexts in which when used would not be offensive. In the end they are just sounds which rely on human interpretation. Human beings are the least consistent of all living things, and this is why we squabble.

Freedom of speech and expression are completely controlled by those who have the power to do so, just yesterday I was banned from a site because the new High School DxD game was not on a platform I wanted it to be on and I expressed disappointment. It was a completely innocuous statement, but one that a person may respond to in such a way that would spark arguments, which the modders were trying to avoid. Dao will be closing off comments and I see this as an exercise of power; which is absolutely needed because if there is true "freedom" there can only be chaos, and most servers can't withstand chaos.

[Lol, I skimmed through the comments before I wrote that last sentence; longest page I've ever seen. Plus, Dao wrote a frigging essay, which must be stressful; I would know, because I don't like being on the internet but when I see an opinion that is just so wrong, I just have to join that site and put my thoughts out there (other sites this has happened, I just come here for the anime, not political discourse.]

To surmise, there is no difference between the two, I think.
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Default 07-04-2013, 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcaray View Post
First, to answer the question in your subject heading, one is a right guaranteed by (an ammendment to) the US constitution, and the other one (whatever you are defining it as) is not.

As far as the rest of what you said, it all depends on how much you are willing to risk offending someone. Your intentions aren't really an issue.
The First Amendment of the United States Constitution protects the right to freedom of religion and freedom of expression from government interference. The high court has identified five areas of expression that the government may legitimately restrict under certain circumstances. These areas are speech that incites illegal activity and subversive speech, Obscenity and Pornography, commercial speech, and symbolic expression. None of which apply to this conversation.

It is a right guaranteed by (an ammendment to) the US constitution. under all but a select few circumstances.

Furthermore I was not asking a question. Nor was I attempting to strictly define either. I was making a statement. My point was they are not mutually exclusive.

As for the rest of what you said,
Your right, in a perfect world. However the world we live in is not black and white, it's grey. Willingness often has little to do with it since intentionally offending another is often said in the heat of the moment. Or because of lack of understanding or common sense. As for me I have done both. But please anyone here who hasn't feel free throw the first stone.

I suppose we can all stand around and debate what should and should not be said as it pertains to political correctness before we actually have a conversation. However I think I will pass. I'm not much in favor of a future 1984.


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Default 07-04-2013, 01:46 PM

First of all, i'd like to say that i think there is a difference between these two.
My understanding is that freedom of speech is part of the freedom of expression since speech is a form of expression. What i find amusing is the fact that you refer only to US law. What about the people (like me) who are not bound by US law? In my country it is perfectly legal to express yourself any way you like to with very few exceptions, may it be offensive or not. I sometimes pity the USA because they claim to be the land of the free and yet they are not free to even voice their oppinion if it goes against the state or constitution. What point is there in a freedom that restricts people from changing the ways that society works? This may be offensive to some religious people as well, but evolution clearly proves that mankind mainly survived and developed because we were superior in one thing: Adaption. So my oppinion is: If we prohibit ourselves from adaption now, we just force our own downfall.

Don't get me wrong, i think laws are neccessary, but i also think they should be treated more like a form of "guideline" than an rule that must be followed at all costs. People should be able to live the way they want to, even if it may be offensive to others as long as they dont hurt more than peoples feelings to a certain degree.

The true problem about "right" and "wrong" is that they are values defined by failable humans, even if it may have been thousands over an significant period of time. So as long as there is no "godly" being appearing before me, that can explain "right" and "wrong" in a logical way with appropriate reasoning, i think everyone is best off defining their own rules to live by, even if it causes conflict.
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Default 07-04-2013, 04:59 PM

I'm really confused - what is the real purpose of this thread?
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Default 07-04-2013, 05:17 PM

There was/is a bit of drama going on with the Free! commen section...


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Default 07-04-2013, 10:24 PM

People can call w/e they want gay, stupid, asinine, rehashed, w/e the hell they want. The internet is a neutral playground and if someone gets iffy about people calling smth gay then they don't belong on the net. Besides, the word "gay" has many meanings at this point in time.

Oh, and Free! is a pretty gay show kthnx~


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Default 07-05-2013, 12:52 AM

I think both topics have become murky in the sea of lawyers and the legal system. I had a friend who made a website a while back that was titled "The Coalition against stupid people". The government took it down stating it fell in the category of "hate crimes" haha. He tried to argue (not that he really cared, but had some free time) that the government, Ohio specifically and not the current administration, violated his freedom of speech and expression. They just ignored him lol.


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Default 07-05-2013, 01:05 AM

Added to the issue is that conception that "Freedom of Speech" means absolute freedom to say anything you want.. The actual amendment wording goes with "abridging the freedom of speech", which is kinda vague, and certain exceptions have to be made ("rights for authors and inventors over their works and discoveries (copyright and patent), protection from imminent or potential violence against particular persons (restrictions on fighting words), or the use of untruths to harm others (slander). ")

Considering the ambiguity of some of these (Your friend probably shouldn't have called it a "coalition" [=a pact or treaty among individuals or groups, during which they cooperate in joint action], since there was that threat of "Joint action" against the "stupid people"), there are plenty of ways to bypass the first amendment depending on how easily action may fall within these categories.

[passive]Added to that is that weird assumption that the right applies to every single form of communication. Does anyone bother skimming the T&Cs of Facebook, Twitter, etc? They usually have specifically worded provisions that waive your right to speech on certain matters. You voluntarily agreed to them. Stop complaining about having your posts reported [/passive]


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Default 07-05-2013, 01:51 AM

These kinds of things make me glad I'm not a mod, if I was I'd spend entirely too much time banning dumb asses that I'd have no time to actually watch anime.


This is the INTERNET!
If you're not making baseless assumptions, random accusations, applying Rules 34 and 35, implementing Godwin's Law, cross-genre'ing cats and ponies and judging the bejesus out of people... YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!
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Default 07-06-2013, 04:22 AM

Yeah,

Being a Mod is similar to my job as a manager, however, most of the responses I give my employees is "I don't care; use your best judgement; don't call me on my days off because I will be drunk" and to my customers "I am sorry that we fail; if I throw money at the problem will you be happy?; let me get back with you"

Lol


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