[the space cadet]

Originally Posted by Torgon02

I didn't say EoE didn't make sence, just that the original made more sence. But like you said, it wasn't grand or exciting enough for most fans
The Human Instumentality Project brought all humans together into a group consciousnes that worked over every individual's psyche until they were ready to evolve to the next level. Shinji really had nothing to do with it except for being the example used for the episode

The Human Instrumentality Project is the act of joining mankind. Each human is an individual because we all possess an AT Field. The project was the act of destroying mankind's AT Field, reducing everyone into LCL... and they needed Lilith to be reborn to accomplish that.

And Shinji had nothing to do with the Human Instrumentality Project? He's the sole person in existance that chooses whether to accept or reject the project.
Shinji and Unit 01's AT Field created the explosion (viewable from space) that revealed Lilith's egg which the AT Field-less humans entered to evolve to the next level of existance. Once the Egg of Lilith is in her hands, the Instrumentality begins. Shinji initiates this. He then chooses to either accept instrumentality or reject it... which he first accepts. He then decides mankind should live as individuals, rejecting it.

Seperating himself from Lilith, she dies, and mankind returns to individuality.

So... are you sure Shinji "really had nothing to do" with the Human Instrumentality Project?

[Saecryd]

People in the situation of the OP are in for something of a headache. Watching EVA in it's order of release won't make things clear until much later. The first ending answered very little, the second one raised more questions than it answered, and most everything that came afterward kinda made it worse. This is thanks in no small part to Gainex's insistence of using imagery for the sake of using imagery: a ton of stuff they show is completely pointless.

Honestly, making EVA coherent on your own is nigh impossible. This is why resources lik The Wiki are invaluable, where fans can collaborate theories and finally discover just what the hell is going on. I highly recommend checking that out.

I have not seen these newer films but I've been told that they are a million times better than the series and silly endings that followed it.

[the space cadet]

What I learned about EoE was from watching the producer's commentary on the DVD. I'll get crazy here and say that what they explain is more trustworthy that whatever is on wiki. All the imagery has a reason for it. It all gets explained.

Is there any form of media with a "deeper meaning" that doesn't use imagery and symbolism? Things are always left up to the viewer to translate things how they believe, or else research it in one way or another.

I don't think it's coincidence in these situations (not just Evangelion) for the person that doesn't like it so say "wft is going on... this is stupid and pointless" and for the person that enjoys it to have taken the time to understand it. Because, simply, people don't like what they don't understand.

Originally Posted by Saecryd

The first ending answered very little, the second one raised more questions than it answered

I have not seen these newer films but I've been told that they are a million times better than the series and silly endings that followed it.

What doesn't get answered? The first ending Shinji accepts Instrumentality, and mankind becomes one thought. In EoE, Shinji rejects it, and mankind retains their individuality. What questions got brought up that didn't get answered? Really, only the very end of EoE is left up to interpretaion: why Asuka's eyes are brown. And that was Anno's full intention.

And I'm sure that what you've been told about the new movies being a million times better than the original series silly endings is right on, considering only 1 of the 4 movies is even available.

[Saecryd]

Dude, the creators have admitted that they used religious imagery because "it looked cool". Google it, they used a lot of imagery simply because they thought it looked nice, not because there was any inherent meaning.

EVA did a lot of very cool things. I like that the entire series is basically in motion solely because Gendo is trying to ressurect his wife, that ends up being a pretty big reveal that makes perfect sense when you look at what Gendo is and what motivates him. The series is essentially moving on events that preceeded it and it did it well.

It's true that overall I am not a big fan of the show but this is no indicator of how much I did or did not understand it. But I am most certainly a proponent of the idea that a show should be able to stand on it's own merits and not require additional information to be coherent. When the series first aired with that first ending I think there was a universal sense of "WTF", and for good reason.

It turns out that the first ending was solely the product of Gainex completely draining their funding and racing around to tie everything up in a stupid "Shinji sitting in a chair and talking to himself" episode that makes the rest of the show seem like it was a completely different genre. The transition was completely jarring and ridiculous on it's face. You can literally see Gainex trying to save money on every shot with as little animation as possible. This is not a good example of writing in any way.

What questions did it raise? How about, Did anything in this series actually happen or did Shinji conjure it all up in his head? What was the point of each individual character in relation to Shinji's severe hedgehog complex? Why tie up so much awesome action and with an episode that revolves around a kid sitting in a chair? None of it made any sense, and the studio basically admitted to that later on when they revealed that they had zero budget left by then.

[evereternal7]

Originally Posted by the space cadet

Really, only the very end of EoE is left up to interpretaion: why Asuka's eyes are brown. And that was Anno's full intention.

May I ask you how you interpret it? I would like to know what other people think of it

[the space cadet]

Sakcrud, I was mostly refering to EoE... which you didn't mention... at all. And actually, you avoided touching on most of my last posts topics completely.

Yes, they used symbolism throughout the series for the imagery, like explosions in the shape of a cross... but I was refering to the endings... mainly EoE, which is why I mentioned having watched the producer's commentary on the dvd and why it all makes sense and that the imagery has specific reasons. Remember?

As for the whole original ending and lack of funds, try reading earlier posts since it was already discussed and awknowledged. Anno himself admitted they were crap, hence EoE.

Originally Posted by Saecryd

What questions did it raise? How about, Did anything in this series actually happen or did Shinji conjure it all up in his head? What was the point of each individual character in relation to Shinji's severe hedgehog complex? Why tie up so much awesome action and with an episode that revolves around a kid sitting in a chair? None of it made any sense, and the studio basically admitted to that later on when they revealed that they had zero budget left by then.

Shinji conjuring everything up in his mind? Are you serious? No where and at no time in the entire series, or in EoE, is there any indication of this. It's a hypothetical question. But nice try in your attempt in accumulating your "unanswered" questions to reinforce your argument.

The hedgehog's dilemma is just the psychological state of mind of Shinji. There's nothing more outside of that. The entire series displays Shinji's fragile mentality which is why he was used as the catalyst for the Human Insturmentality Project... because the person needed to be someone that wanted a different life than the one he was currently living.

And Shinji sitting in a chair while struggles in life flash around in his head while he decides to either accept or reject Instumentality isn't a damn question. It's you vainly trying to find reasons to justify the things you previously stated.

Care to mention all the "unanswered" questions in EoE, since that was your accusation?

[Saecryd]

I'm glad that you're not sticking to your guns on the imagery. That was pretty obviously a bad point to try to make.

I think you're overlooking one very important part of the conversation here: the original ending was absolutely horrible. It shattered the context of the series and turned an interesting mecha anime into psychobabble that only had the thinnest of connections to what was going on in the show. Yes, the later endings (the mere fact that there's more than one should be a huge warning sign here) did a better job of illustrating the importance of Shinji's mindset but the original ending, the one we were stuck with for a long time, was so terrible that the creators themselves basically apologized for it.

So, they make another ending and, hey, they run out of money again. Great, this will be fun.

You're basically asking me to overlook an enormous glaring flaw in this series, to pretend that the first ending didn't happen. You don't get to do that and neither does Gainex. The series took an enormous blow to it's credibility the first time it tried to wrap itself up. This isn't a minor detail, this is a huge flaw that an entire studio couldn't adequately account for. You sweep the issue aside like it's no big deal since they did a slightly better ending later. This isn't the argument of a critical third party, it's the argument of a ravenous fanboy.

I mean, you honestly want to point to a series that is unarguably an action/mecha at heart then point to the ending it had and say that it all worked out somehow? Are you serious? Do you know what "jarring" means? Can you not spot a blatant "We don't know how to end this so we made this crazy ending to wrap it up" episode when you see it? They basically admitted to it after the fact both in words and by making another ending.

EVA is just a mangled train wreck of poor writing and poor planning that received a huge fanbase regardless because it was still doing things no one else was doing at the time. There are plenty of clever and downright awesome elements to the show (Asuka's final battle with the angels is the stuff of anime legend) but it just can't keep this shambling wreck afloat when examined more closely.

If you watch EVA and don't see squandered potential then there is no way in hell that I will change your mind. It's made up, you obviously revere EVA in a way I cannot comprehend.

[the space cadet]

Sakcrud, I'm forcing myself to be oblivious to your nonsense. I skimmed your post and you still have yet to touch my original points, instead rambling on about things that didn't pertain to the beginning discussion. You are greatly mistaken if you think I'm telling you to over look something. You seem to be quite blind, assessing only the things you want to hear. Please point out where I said the original ending was good. And you're glad I'm not sticking to my guns on the imagery? I was sticking with my original point on the imagery, you fool. The fact that you only see what you want to see tells you otherwise.

So, to summarize myself, since you seem incapable of realizing what it is I'm trying to say, and for the love of god pay attention: there are basically no unanswered questions to either ending of Evangelion... that was your criticism for why they suck. The imagery used in EoE all have specific meanings... you accused it of being pointless. That's it. Nothing else. Now read all the garbage in your posts. You keep stumbling over issues that I never said... while trying to make points on topics that were never there in the first place.

So, disregarding the inevitable ignorance that's going to deluge from your mouth, I can move on to this...

Originally Posted by evereternal7

May I ask you how you interpret it? I would like to know what other people think of it

My interpretation why Asuka has brown eyes at the end is biased because of what I've researched about it. To be honest, I don't think I ever had my own theory behind it... but what I stick with now is that it's the world that Shinji wanted... so he combined the three women he cared for the most, Misato, Rei, and Asuka, into one. If you combined all their eye colors into one, it would turn brown.

[WsE]

Author got his answer and this has been derailed completely. Locked.